Posted by Crakalakin (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 6:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"In addition to being here for local residents, the recreation complex will become a destination for tournament teams. Large tournaments can be held and bring in thousands of people here to stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants, and shop in our stores."

Same old, same old. Has anybody even actually talked to the folks who head up these tournaments about coming here? No? Then drop this angle. It is ridiculous. You have no idea whether Natchez even qualifies to host a tournament, much less whether or not one would uproot from another, larger city to come here.

I have never seen people push so hard for something they have no information at all about. Something seems really suspect about all this.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 6:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Why is golf included in this? Don't we have enough golf facilities at Duncan Park? And what is being proposed for the Duncan Park ball fields and tennis courts once this new complex is operational? Answers would be very much appreciated from anyone involved.

Posted by Hambone (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 7:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Crakalakin: "I have never seen people push so hard for something they have no information at all about. Something seems really suspect about all this."
Reminds me of the last Presidential election...

Posted by sandyman7 (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

hmmmmmmm Let's think back..Many years ago, big plans were to build a sports complex at the place where the old drive-in theater use to be...but sports big wigs put a halt to that....why???? then land was made avaliable out on red loop road,,,baseball fields were built, but no lights were ever installed...now just grown up weeds... why????Now all of a sudden, taxes going up money hard to come by...Lets spend 5million on a sports complex....with the movie adage of "IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. OMG

Posted by Crakalakin (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 8:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Good point Hambone. I guess I have seen it before. ;)

Posted by 2008 (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Build it they will come...NOT.

Feed and house the tourists in Natchez let Vidalia build the Rec. Center.

This is an expense that Natchez can ill afford.

Posted by lightcatcher (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The same few cynics continue to hijack the online democrat, and it's such a shame! If I beleived everything that this same old, tired crew of pessimists spouted day after day, I'd never get out of bed in the morning! Not only does this group think that the glass is half empty,...they think the glass is completely empty, has a crack in it, and a conspiracy exists to manufacture bad glasses!!!

All they seem to be able to do is sit back and criticize every article and every idea that comes along. There is rarely any positive feedback or even constructive criticism, just negative, sour-toned comments.

I challenge the group to offer something more constructive to the recreation dialog, as well as every other topic/article on here also.

No one wants to be some naive fool, with their head in the clouds, thinking everything will just work itself out. There are legitimate political and financial issues to be dealt with regarding recreation, but I feel strongly that with the will, commitement, and hard work of the people of Adams County, these challenges can be overcome. "Hope" by itself, is not a strategy for any endeavor, but neither is the culture of cynicism.

Posted by whatthehell47 (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with all these posings. There are too many unanswered questions out there.
I wonder- who is going to pay for this complex? The city/county? They are broke, moreso the city. They have had to borrow money to keep afloat! Sales collections are down. Cuts being made in personel. Where do you imagine these funds are going to come from?
I remember well some years ago that "the nasty lady who is down at the CVB" informed all of us that the reason that Natchez had so few conventions is that we did not have an 18 hole golf course. Having one would pull in conventions galore! So the general public bought into it and lo and behold! Where are all the conventions!?
I'm sick of being asked to buy into another scheme. Gambling boats will fill the city coffers and bring thousands of people! ( Fizzle sound) A new convention center will bring conventions and money galore ( Fizzle sound) The CVB building will be a state of the art facility where all these thousands of tourists ( going to the gambling boat and new convention center, you know) will arrive and deposit fees and spend!!! (Fizzle sound). And the beat goes on.
I have an idea- if this complex is such a great idea, then seek out private investors to fund it! Surely if the numbers look good, there would be some people willing to invest in it! So what if it is privately run- at least the city (aka the taxpayers) will not shoulder the burdens of financing another "get rich quick" scheme.
And while I agree with the assertion that state-wide events could be hosted here, I still want to see the numbers and the facts and a well though-out presentation.
I don't want the citizens to be indebted again, and that includes ME!!

Posted by Yeahuhuh (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course more facilities would be used if they were built. Build for the locals or build to attract others, that is the question?

Seems to me that for this to be more than a fizzle that something really spectacular or at least different would need to happen. Larger cities have tried the idea of building a complex for baseball and hoping that they become a tournament center and that does not seem a sure thing at all.

Climbing walls on the bluff. A zip line from the Gazebo to under the hill. Or maybe one from the bluff to Vidalia (just kidding). A water park?

I would expect for the locals to demand something that they already use and are comfortable with, and for the project to just be a repeat set of athletic fields and a pool -- if that is the case our appeal to the rest of the world will be very ordinary.

Posted by whatthehell47 (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Lightcatcher, if you ask me, the number on priority that Natchez should have is EDUCATION!
I firmly believe that Natchez has an illiterate and uneducated work force, and that is the direct result of the failure of the school system to educate!
I would not even think of locating an industry here based on the failure of the system!
School exists for one primary reason- to educate! It is not football, it is not baseball or basketball or soccer, it is EDUCATION! Without education your society is doomed.
So, I say prioritize education. If a school cannot meet the very basic levels of academic acceptance, I say suspend ALL the school sports UNTIL you have raised the level of learning.
Sports takes a rear seat to intelligence and the ability to better ones' self and , hopefully, the community.
Where is the great cry for better education!!??

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

we all know Clarence is a great citizen and a nice guy

he also has a vested interest and a biased outlook on this issue

Sports Center has a monopoly on sports uniforms and this complex will certainly increase the sales thereof......

yes one could say we "need" this recreational complex so, so bad---

but let's tell the truth, this complex is just something we WANT so we can all go out and play and have a good time, it's not something we actually need

yeah I "need" a new rifle for hunting season- but I can't afford it, and I certainly am not putting it on a credit card, no sense going in debt on something I just want and don't really need. I "need" a new boat so I go out fishing, but sadly, I don't have the money for that, and it would be foolish for me to make a big loan for a boat and put myself in debt for 5 years to pay off a fancy fishing boat just to please my childish whims....

and that's what our city/county leaders might do if we give them a green light on this rec complex -- they will move ahead with plans without knowing how in the world they will actually pay for it. The money is NOT in the bank for this complex. There is NO definite financial plan laid out yet. We will wind up in debt, if you look at our city/county history we always borrow and go in debt to acquire stuff we don't really need, in order to look good for the next election by trying to make good on promises that should have never been made.

Anybody ever get that free water yet?

Well this rec complex won't be free either.....

We're likely to wind up with higher taxes in some form or another.

I'm all for recreation- but let's see the money and know for sure where the money is for this...

our city can barely make payroll and is laying off employees....but we have 5.5 million for this??? This just doesn't make sense.

Our police and fire dept NEED more wages, equipment, training.....

Our public works NEEDs more money to take care of our trees that need cutting and we NEED money put aside for emergencies- there will be more storms coming and more damage to be cleaned up.....

We need to spend money to sell Natchez to some industry, it will take travel and advertising and someone to get out and pitch Natchez to the world to draw in some more business/industry because we REALLY NEED new JOBS.....!!!!! What is wrong with us, recreation will come easily once our economy is creating a stronger tax base!!!!

I hate to be "pessimistic", but we all have families and WANT better recreation, but as family people we all understand the difference between needs and wants, we all have to live within our means and try to minimize our debt. Let's have a little discipline and keep our city and county in good financial shape, especially during tough economic times and times of uncertainty that we are in.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

wait a minute

city and county officials are asking us to vote "yes"???? That's just not true, the way I see it.....

I thought they wanted to know our desire whether yes or no!!

I'll vote yes when I know where the money is.

I'll vote NO until I know where the money is.

If our city and county leaders wanted this and had the money there wouldn't even be a vote.

Let's be responsible and do the right thing.

I want recreational improvements when we have the money for it BUT NOT UNTIL THEN>........

Just lay out a definite plan on how this complex will be financed and then I'm ALL FOR IT, but not until......

Would you make a loan for a house if you didn't have a job??? NO
Would you buy another new car if you were broke and on the verge of bankruptcy? NO! Well our city is broke, ......... let's have a little sense and discipline and put our real needs before our petty and childish wants. I think it's more important to teach our kids how to make do with what we can afford, rather than teach them to splurge and spend when we don't have the money.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

lightcatcher, In your post you have referred to posters here as pessimistic, cynical, conspiracy theorists, critical, negative , sour-toned and naive. Yet, I asked some legitimate questions about the proposed complex and they remain unanswered. Perhaps by the end of the day?

Please read through the posts here more more carefully. We (Natchez) have been sold down the river more than once on schemes by being told how good they were for the community. Folks are getting tired of it, obviously. Only recently former Mayor Byrne and Kevin Cooper were suggesting we add 9 more holes of golf to Duncan Park. The first 18 were supposed to bring tons of conventions. The next 9 are supposed to do what?

I'm not really keen on having my tax money used to entertain other folk's children or anyone else. But I'm open to being educated about how this proposed complex might truly benefit us. Since the vote is coming up soon, I'd say the folks pushing it need to put forth a better effort in convincing the citizens.

Posted by grungebob (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Does anyone know who is paying for the pro rec center spots on the FNRG stations (haven't heard any on the Smith's stations - yet) and the signs?

The referendum doesn't count, but its still an election paid for by taxpayers and so inherently political. It would appear disclosure and attribution should be required. If not, and the anonimity is legal, I still question the ethics.

Posted by whatthehell47 (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Amen to Krogers and others of his mindset.
This is not about "denying" anyone more facilities to have fun, exercise and compete at
It is about MONEY and the ability to finance this at THIS time.
With the loss of so much of our tax base, we are struggling, both publicly and privately. Now is NOT the time to indebt ourselves any more without the sure ability to PAY IF OFF.
And like Krogers, I am not agreeable to paying more taxes for a facility that I am not personally going to use or benifit from if it means bankrupting the city.
Dialogue really is a good thing, but we need to realize- WHEN YOU AIN'T GOT THE MONEY, AND YOUR FINANCIAL OUTLOOK LOOKS BLEAK, DON'T SPEND IT!!

Posted by jlmorris (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The optimists for the recreational complex are like "cheerleaders". Cheerleaders are at the game in their uniform, with pom poms, and with mega phones.

The cheerleader's function is to get the fan base excited but do not have a CLUE about the game being played.

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Clarence Bowlin is like a fox telling the farmer to put more chickens in the hen house and leave the door open when it comes to this subject. I remember when I was young and played ball he did everything possible to change the uniforms every year so the kids parents would have to buy new ones every season. The local leaders saying this will bring in more money and tourists sounds oddly like a new convention center would bring in more people to our hotels and resturaunts, or a new visitor center would help guide more people to our old homes and generate more taxes and more golf holes would bring in big golf competitions. I could go buy a new stock racing car but that wouldn't make me stock racing driver. We live in a town that struggles every year to even have enough kids to have teams. This town can't even afford to cut the grass around here, keep the streets paved, much less make any sound financial decisions about a sports complex. How much will the power cost? how much for the upkeep? how much for insurance or security to keep the thugs out? We couldn't keep a little pool open in duncan park and they want this big white elephant? The city is trying to put the visitor center on to the park service and has let the convention center be taken over by out of towners because we can't afford them and did a crappy job at running them. They all say recreation is big business, well, show me a business plan instead of a lot of hot air. The Democrat and the local leaders are on the bandwagon togeather again, just like they were when convention center, visitor center, hotel construction, and more golf holes were promised to make BIG impacts on our economy. All any of them did was was tie balls and chains to the feet of the tax payers with nothing to show for it. I will tell everyone to vote NO until a business plan is in place and some form of competance is shown from our local goverment. Cart in front of the horse days are over Natchez

Posted by grungebob (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Speaking of horses, how about a steeplechase, too? That should bring more horse - uh - manure.

Don't wanna be censored twice in one day.

Posted by Bigfish (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

i don't think raising taxes 1% like tony byrne suggested is a good idea and exactly what taxes property taxes? sales taxes? hotel taxes? I mean, i would love to have a rec complex and it would certainly add another aspect to promote natchez, but the simple question is who is going to pay for it and over what amount of time?

I wish this had been handled differently than the chamber pushing everyone to promote a yes vote, but rather allowing open discussion and brainstorming on developing this project and its cost so everyone would be aware of how this thing is gonna get paid for.

If taxes are raised, once this thing is paid for that tax isn't going to disappear it will just be reallocated to a different project or retained by the city/county, etc.

I am for a rec center, but not without an organized and clear explanation on how it will be paid for, over what period of time, and what taxes will be affect and what happens to the tax rate after the rec center is paid for. . .

Posted by justoneopinion (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A recreation complex is needed for this area. It does bring money to your town, not only for the complex but for the retail shops, gas stations, hotels, and the food industry. We have to invest in the future of our youth. If you travel to Hattisburg, St. Fransville, Baton Rouge, Meridan you will see they have invested in their youth.
My children have played for tournament teams and All-stars both baseball and softball for years. In a weekend we can easily spend $300. If we stay a week we can spend close to $800-$1000. You have hotel rooms, gas, food, and shopping. We may go without a vacation, but that is how we choose to invest our money: in our children. A complex should have been built ten years ago. So many life lessons are learned from sports. This community really needs to have a little faith.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

justoneopinion, the community doesn't need to base this vote on faith if the folks making the plans would be more forthcoming with information. That would allow us to make intelligent decisions. But I asked a couple of simple questions this morning and still have no answers. Right about now I'm guessing that my vote isn't really wanted.

Posted by steve_o (anonymous) on October 23, 2009 at 10:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bigfish, you are making sense.

"If taxes are raised, once this thing is paid for that tax isn't going to disappear it will just be reallocated to a different project or retained by the city/county, etc"

How many bonds (tax for people) that were passed in the 70's, 80's, and 90's to pay for various projects are still being collected on by a tax passed then?

I recently read where the county is paying off some bonds coming due.(To me that means the tax increase my grandparents took on is finally paid off and that taxed project should be PAID IN FULL!) But that is where the county seems to propose their extra funding will come from. Are you suppose to collect the taxes used to pay these old bonds off, forever?

Posted by sandbagger (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OldGrandDad:First: DUNCAN PARK golf course would get water lines put on the old 9 holes and also golf cart paths.I take it from your name that you have grand kids.May i ask how old they are and what they do for entertanment( that you know of ).Im not going to tell all you that NATCHEZ will get rich from hosting tournaments.I would dare say not a one of you reading this has ever been to a STATE or WORLD tournament of any kind This past JULY , TUPELO MISS. held a world slow pitch 18yrs. old and younger girls tournament There 32 teams from 8 states entered.I could not begin to tell you how much each person spent BUT im almost positive they DID NOT stay in tents and make jelly sandwiches.If you have a computer go to USSSA.com and look at everything.I CHALLENGE TO DO THIS

Posted by niderbip (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

if the pool at Duncan Park closed TWICE, why would you spend the money yet again somewhere else?

Posted by sandbagger (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I not going to say this is going to make NTCHEZ rich.Im like most people:complain and keep on going.No i dont see it bringing in jobs.BUT THESE KIDS NEED SOMETHING! Im thinking of one example: NORMAN, OK :16 yrs old and younger girls WORLD tournament:62 teams from 18 states as far away as WASHINGTON, NY, FLA .Im trying to tell you again" MAYBE WE DONT GET RICH BUT PLAY WILL COME"

Posted by sandbagger (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think the pool is a waste of money

Posted by 2008 (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 10:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For all those that want a rec center and also have a vested interest in the building of one....Please feel free to organize and work towards a Recreation complex for your children. However, taking out a loan for this complex is absolutely fiscal irresponsibility.

If it is so important to have a recreation facility in Natchez… please utilize the accommodations at Duncan Park for the youth of Natchez. If renovation is needed form a committee of interested citizens and apply for grants, look into private funding, do fund raisers for a year. Go to the schools and promote parent participation through the school system, PTA meetings, town hall, little league teams, just get out and take responsibility for what you want and go to work on it.

There have been plenty of suggestions on this blog.....if the majority see through the smoke and tend to ask more questions....maybe their is good reason.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

sandbagger, Concerning --> "BUT THESE KIDS NEED SOMETHING"

I seriously think that you are confusing Wants with Needs. I appreciate your interest in answering my questions but I still don't see how the water lines answer what I asked. Which was "Why is golf included in this? Don't we have enough golf facilities at Duncan Park? And what is being proposed for the Duncan Park ball fields and tennis courts once this new complex is operational?"

And the grandchillun's are in baseball, softball and soccer.

:)

Posted by justoneopinion (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 12:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is a need. A need for the youth. Recreation, sports helps keep them off the streets and out of trouble, away from drugs, alcohol, and crime.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)

justoneopinion, what happened to work? Work will keep 'em off the street too. And so will books and music and so much more.

I guess there are no answers to simple questions about this proposed facility. But I learned a long long time ago that when people say "we're only thinking of the children" that it means they want it for themselves but have no other firm reasoning.

Posted by Ntz (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 2:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm for the rec, but who are they going to hire to maintain the fields?? Personally we can use prisoners as labor. They have nothing better to do than sit behind bars. At least use them for free. We have to get our tax dollars out of it some how. Don't want my taxes to pay for their medical and food and housing and get nothing for it.

Posted by grungebob (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 4:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The children will use it, grow strong and fit, learn cooperation, teamwork and tolerance, graduate from high school, go to college, find careers elsewhere and never return. This is a good deal?

Posted by sandbagger (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 5:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Because golf is a recreation

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, so is water skiing. Snow skiing too. There used to be an indoor snow ski practice place in Baton Rouge. There's a big one in Dubai. But at any rate, that still leaves 2 of my questions (Don't we have enough golf facilities at Duncan Park? And what is being proposed for the Duncan Park ball fields and tennis courts once this new complex is operational?") unanswered or even attempted by anyone that would court my vote.

No wonder folks posting here seem to be upset.

Posted by justoneopinion (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 7:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oldgranddad,I wanted it several years back. But now it's too late for my children. It had nothing to do myself (the adult). Maybe it could be possible for my grandchildren. What work would you like for 5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 -13-14-15 year olds to do other than chores? I don't think the job market is too great for them now

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on October 24, 2009 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

justoneopinion, chores will do just fine. If your home does not have any, my congratulations to you. But I'm sure that with a little creativity you will come up with countless ways to keep your children busy and/or entertained. But to say that my tax dollars are needed to entertain other people's children in order to keep them from going bad is quite a stretch.

Everyone knows that the Democrat has these pages where folks comment and ask questions. I'm certain that Mr. Bowlin has friends and family that read this. I'm certain that many supporters of this sports complex have been reading this. I can only wonder why the most basic of questions and concerns have not been addressed. And I'll repeat that it is no wonder that people here seem upset about this proposed sports complex. I've been sitting on the fence about this issue until I learned more. But the pro-recreation complex folks are not helping themselves one little bit.

Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on October 25, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OK so in sandbaggers opinion the only sports that count are those tossing some kind of ball around. What about equesterian events? My kid all ride and used to show or do endurance rides. The arena here has shows once a month during the spring and summer, but I bet if we built a quality barn and arena such as Ft. Worth Fair Grounds has lots of horses and riders would show up. Big bucks there too. You can't just cater to one group. I think the idea of private backers would work the best. When the Liberty Park barns and arena were torn down, a small core group of riders got together and built the arena on Muddy Forks Rd. So those of you yelling for more ball fields, tennis courts, golf courses, - put your money and time where your mouth is.